The United States Red or Blue????

That map has the shape of parts of the Soviet Union, China and Vietnam.

Your point may be valid and it is a good one from a standpoint of demographics. The question begs however, does a county in Louisiana which is much smaller than a county in New York deserve to be governed by the beliefs of those living in a county in New York?

This leads us to the intent of the founders on two points:

(1) That is why the electoral college was established. Popular vote of any population center should never dictate the governance of another so far away. Otherwise New York and Los Angeles would always determine the political leaning of the government. So thank God for the electoral college.

(2) Now on to the fear that the founders had about a strong central government. MOST, not all feared this and believed in the rights of states. Government was designed at the federal level to take care of very little. I am sure that you would not and I certainly do not want any political party to determine everything for all citizens based on popular vote. That was the case over the last 8 years and I am sure that your map is not suggesting that now. Right?

Finally, this was a 53%-46% election. The extra turnout probably added a point or two.

If 75% of New York consisted of liberal voters and 25% were moderates and conservatives it is not represented on either of our maps.

In total numbers there is simply no proof that we have turned from a center right country to a center left country.

By the way, those are maps that USA Today and other media outlets use. The intent is to show that population centers are not the only factor in elections.

What does a New Yorker know about life in the heartland. Bottom line is that states need to have the power, not the federal government.

One more point.  over 130,000,000 million votes were cast in the 2008 election.  The popular vote separating the candidates was only 9,000,000.  If you take that number and spread it out through the population centers, the margin was not that great in many areas.....including Illinois.  This election was a numbers game and no conclusion of a mandate or doctrine change should be read into the numbers.

We are the United States!  Let's hope for the best.  Plenty of tough times ahead of us still.  On a side note, I think this is an interesting time for the GOP. If they can get back to their roots of fiscal conservatism, smaller, more efficient gov't, social moderates, environmental conservatism, strength in education, etc., then they will re-group and be strong. I hope that is the case because if not, what other party is going to fill in the void and keep us with two strong parties? Liberatarians?

Good points.

For now let's take a wait and see with Obama.  The pendulum swings and any student of history (I know you are one) understands that each party screws it up and then it swings the other way.

Obama will only be successful if he governs from the middle.  An excellent example of this is the gay marriage vote in California.  People are not stark raving liberal all over the country.  

The pendulum will swing but your points are valid as it will be important that Republicans return to their roots! 

Bill.  With a  9 million popular vote total, Obama Biden have a  strong mandate to govern.  The electoral vote for Obama was more than twice that of McCain.  The people spoke.  When Bush won in 2004 by 2%, his team claimed it was an mandate.  Most of us laughed then, but we aren't now.

I also wonder why a group of rightwing social conservatives should tell others how to live their lives?  

Bush was wrong to claim a "mandate" and so are Obama supporters who who claim one now.

If Obama won by 18% then lets talk a mandate. If he uses the mandate then he is not representing the will of 46% of the people. That will cripple his presidency and he knows it.

Your social conservative comments are aimed at issues that I am sure are close to your heart but time and time again you tell others how to live their lives, who they must accept and tolerate, etc. What is the difference.

Here is my reply: I wonder why a group of leftwing social malcontents should tell others how to live their lives?

This is not a middle left country. Proposition 8 passed in California. Those voters know that to give Democrats all of the power and take the country to the Left is not the right course. I know that you want unchecked social change but voters are not that willing to do so.

You whined and cried for the 2 years you have been responding to my letters in the Monitor and this blog about unfairness and how you felt misrepresented. Now you want to do the same. That is hypocritical!

Clay,

Perhaps this is a better representation from the same website source that you mentioned in your post.

Note:  Purple indicates closely split. red strongly Republican and blue strongly Democrat.

Did you have a point to this rant, Bunker?  In 2004, Bush won with 50.7% to Kerry's 48.3%.  And they called it a mandate.  Obama won the 2008 election by more than 9 million in the popular vote, 52% to McCain's 46%.  The electoral vote was 365 to 173.  That, following Dick Cheney's definition, is definitely a mandate.  

Republicans lost  for many reasons, including their smug, obnoxious behavior which most of your letters and blogs illustrate.  Hubris gets you nowhere.  Just ask George Bush.

Michael- what is your point? 

Who care's what Cheney called a mandate? I don't think you hear Obama running around saying the DEM's have a mandate. Rather, he thinks it is clear that we have a lot of problems, and clearly there is blame to be shared across the entire Federal Gov't by Dems and Republicans alike.

Perhaps we should focus on continuing to push our leaders to do what is in the best interests of the USA. I caught about 3 minutes of Obama's interview on 60 Minutes last night. What he said was very interesting in that it is not important which side comes up with the solution but that it is a good solution and one that will strengthen us.  That is the kind of leadership stance that made me support him. We need to get past the anger and focus on the hard work ahead and making sure that our leaders stay focused.  Too much to lose.

I was trying to suggest that Mr. Bunker's position that the nation is still conservative is wrong based on the election results.  That's all.  I agree, timss13 there is much work to be done and we hope that we see solutions and improvements to the nations great problems.

The issue is that you do not practice what you preach.

First of all, you did not think there was a mandate in 2004 and you have expressed that so many times.

Yet now, you want to claim a mandate so that you can push a liberal agenda.

Next, hubris is one of the personality traits of Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi or even our own Paul "Franking" Hodes but not one of mine.

46% of the population voting Republican with about 4% giving Obama a 'test run' is not a majority or mandate.

Gay marriage was soundly defeated in 3 states. That is not the result of a middle left country and is right minded.  Other initiatives revealed the same conservative leanings.

Obama won due to a bad economy, a desire of people for a change and look-see at what Obama will do, some voter fraud, African Americans coming out in the largest numbers in history and 1% more students voting than usual.

Don't fool yourself, Michael, you are not interested in solving anything, only changing this country in your progressive Utopian vision. Maybe Obama is interested in consensus; you are not!

What does consensus mean to you Wilfred? From our correspondence over the last couple of years I'd say, consensus means...do it your way, or no way.  And when you win, mock your opponent and put him down.  Call him names and tell lies.  That's what it means to you.

As I have in the past, I will give you, once again two examples of consensus that Obama could embrace to prove to people that we can unite this country.

Health Care-

Non-consensus is tooling with the present system so that eventually we all wind up on a government plan that requires long waiting times and poor care. Government run crappy health care for everyone.

Consensus means that we cover those who can not afford it and have a litmus test that proves whether there is a need.  Allow others to decide what health care they will choose and if their employers do not offer it, offer a plan to them.

Abortion-

Non-consensus is  not allowing any abortions or allowing all abortions with all of the trappings of excuses either way.

Consensus means give and take on both sides.  As I have stated before, for instance, agreeing that it is a woman's right to choose but not paying for counseling, the actual abortion,etc. and not allowing late term if the mother's life is not in danger and outlawing infanticide.

I am willing to work with the other side but in the past progressives only like the reaching across the aisle kind of thing if the reaching comes from the right to extends to the left.

We will see what kind of consensus, ethics and principles Democrats have this time around.  I expect hard core 'my way or the highway' attitudes.  We will see.

BTW-The name is William, Micky. 

COMPETENCE in Government coming to our country soon.....
Soldiers coming home,
restoration of Habias Corpus,
Gitmo closing,
Torture OUT,
Affordable Health for everyone,
Tax cuts for middle class,
Protect and uphold the Consitution...check.
Clean Renewable alternative energy,
SCIENCE!
Technology!
Infrastructure!
Sanity!

Brought to you by the best and brightest, compliments of Barack Obama!

Greetings,

I am just wondering what this Obama mandate might be. As far as I can tell, Obama is a conservative and a go along with the program type Democrat. He will not rock any corporate boats, or interfere with the advance of the empire.

Shalom

Yo Michael,

I agree with you about the great expectations of an Obama administration as contrasted with the Bush gang. But I temper my audacious hope with the recent selections of the in crowd: Rahm Emmanuel and the Hillary. But I will "keep hope alive."

I would also like to ad that I do not think that the Bush gang is incompetent. They are cruel, vindictive, miscreants who have slaughtered our Constitution in order to feed their lust for power. They have been outlandishly successful in this regard. They are one goose step away from turning this country into a fascist state and they have two months left to do it.
Shalom

Yo Bill,

What does TAM Daschle mean? Was it a typo or is it some sinister plot to destroy pseudoliberals?

Shalom

Greetings Bill,

What is wrong with trains coming back? What is wrong with public transportation? What is wrong with public anything?
The capitalist pigs are now pleading for more public welfare in an outlandish manner. Hank the Bank Paulson and his Hole in the Wall Street Gang can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps so they are demanding that, we taxpayers, appease them. OH Chamberlin!

Greetings Bill,

What does that mean Bill? Do you have a psychologiclal problem with families that have two mommys? Some friends of mine have been raised by two mommies. There is good news Bill. Help is available for you.

Geee Bill, how can you say there was no victory? We murdered millions of innocent people and destroyed vast amounts of property. All in the name of imperialism.

Shalom

Yo Bill,

When you compare torture to "flushing a Koran down a toilet," I gotta ask, have you been paying attention? I could elaborate on this subject, but I do not like to remind myself about the disgusting acts that our government has been conducting in out name.

Shalom

1.  John McCain

2.  Sarah Palin

3.  No answers to the problems.

Obama won the electoral vote by a LANDSLIDE.

In "out" name?

Tom Daschle..........Obama is abandoning his principles.

Heather Has Two Mommies-Nope, if that is your lifestyle choice then make it but as M Evans said....technology.  Let's trade the propagandized social agenda for more science and math schooling.

Trains-Dangerous, dirty aluminum tubes smelling like urine carrying cattle to their destinations.  Public anything is not the American dream nor what this country was built upon.   Public governmental growth leads to high taxes and terrible services.

Is you handle spelled properly or should it be "imbecile".  Please stop wasting bandwith and consolidate your posts into one.  Also, it would be helpful if you answered the points rather than dismissing items.

Shalom-GOODBYE!

Greetings Bill,

First let me thank you for pointing out my typo. This proves beyond a reasonable doubt that unlike, Moses, Jesus, and El Ron Muhammed, I am not infallible. Sorry.

I do not understand your point? about Tom Daschle, so maybe I am an "imbecile." Sorry.

I agree Bill, we need science and math in our schools. By the way, public education is socialism isn't it? Robert Ingersoll pointed out over 100 years ago that, "Our schools do not need a moment of silence, they need a moment of science." Bravo to that. But I wonder what this has to do with gays. I just don't understand (the imbecile thing?) why conservative types are so afraid of gay people. It is just very sad that conservatives are such fraidy cats. Oh well.

When my children were young (yes, we atheists have children too) we ventured off to Montreal for a vacation. The best part of that vacation was the fact that I parked our car when we arrived at the hotel and I never drove again until we left the beautiful city of Montreal. We took trains everywhere we went. It was marvelous. I had a great time. I did not see any cattle or smell urine, but then, that may be because I may be an imbecile as you so eloquently pointed out.

And so, I was just wondering about your last comment, "Is you handle spelled properly or should it be "imbecile." I may be an imbecile, but shouldn't there be a ? after your ingenious question? It appears to me that you may have been consuming alcoholic beverages when you wrote the above. I forgive you Bill.

Shalom,
Infidel

I agree that mass transit can be a marvelous way to get around in crowded cities.  I've use the services in Boston, Washington, and Montreal as well.  I never smelled urine either.  The one form of mass transit where I have felt like cattle is flying on US airplanes.  I think the seats were designed for people who lived 100 years ago!!  

I'm also old enough to remember America's passenger rail services which were a grand way to get from here to there.  Too bad America let them go.  They could have continued to service us well if had had the foresight and hadn't allowed ourselves to become addicted to gasoline guzzling automobiles.  Oh well...

You'll find the Bill tends to see the world through as a place to fear, like so many on the right. Not untypical for  regressive reactionaries.

Well, I thought that in the spirit of "Tam" I would point out that typo.

The "imbecile" comment was to make a point; to have you respond in a more serious manner and you did, thank you.

Tom Daschle-The point it simple.  During his campaign Obama made a set of rules for cabinet choices.  It is well publicized.  Anyone with lobby ties would not serve in a capacity related to that lobby until they were free from the lobby for over 2 years.

Tom Daschle is lobbying for a law firm supporting universal health care, special interest groups in health care, etc.  He is being considered for the HHS post.  If Obama appoints him, that violates Obama's own promises and principles.

Trains?  Have you taken a ride on the "T" lately or "SEPTA" in Philly or the NY Subway?  All of those are trains and public transportation.   It is a smelly experience at best, you might as well go Greyhound!

IN a sense, public education is Socialism, but, without "agenda" it is life training of the basics that we need to function in society.  NO ONE is afraid of persons of any sexual persuasion but that agenda, along with personal politics, etc. needs to be taught in schools.

Although, after the release of last week's Zogby poll illustrating what voters really know and the report released this week about the illiteracy of college graduates when it comes to civics, maybe a back to basics approach is more important than learning about "Heather" or how to slide a condom on a banana.

Sorry, no alcohol here "infidel". 

If I had a time machine I would get you a free pass to go back to the 19th century and you could enjoy the ride.

Boston's "T"  Grand?  Marvelous?   It is cattle herding plain and simple.

No fear here, Michael, just a view of self determination versus "mass" determination.  Public transit has it's place but to think that we should build rail again is silly.

Nice stereotyping "regressive reactionary".....as opposed to "Progressive radical".

Come on Evans, your agenda is 'my way or the highway'.  Gas guzzling autos?  Only if you chose one of those.  Driving a hybrid is no joy, however, it has the power of a moped.

Marvelous?  Grand?  Foresight?  Baloney Evans! 

Greetings Bill,

Yes, I have been on the Metro in Washington D.C. recently. I went to join thousands of people in protest of fuhrer Bush and his invasion of Iraq. I was there with my children in January 2003 before the illegal and immoral invasion was launched and I have been back three or four times since then. It was not fun riding the subway but I did not want to drive in the city. I am glad that I had the choice. Yes, I am pro choice.

We still have train tracks in Plymouth, NH and the train station is still there, although it is now the senior center. (Is the senior center socialism?) A train still uses the tracks, but it is just a tourist attracton called the Ho Bo railroad. I would like to be able to ride the train to Boston or even NYC instead of being anchored to a car. But even if I drove my automobile, I would be using the public highway, more socialism?
I love my pick up truck, I really do, but I just think that our country needs to invest a little more in the infrastructure that gives us the mobility to interact with each other.

You are quite right Bill, the public schools are socialism. And I think that it is just as important to demonstrate to our young citizens that tolerance and respect for others is as important as readin, ritin, and rithmatic. We do not have to respect other lifestyles or ideas, but we should respect the right of each person to hold whatever ideas they choose, even Republicans.

And now I will leave all you rugged individuals with some words written a long time ago:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

That's all folks,
Infidel

Hi Bill,

New job has had me jumping for the last several days. I thought I might comment on the postings found on this blog. I remember nigh on two years ago the whole hope and change spiel. Rahm the enforcer Emmanuel, Tom the lobbyist Daschle, and Janet I can't make up my mind about immigration Napolitano. Oops I gave away the punchline before I told the joke!

What will democrats do without Bush to blame?

While the stock market drops like a rock into a well, where is the President Elect?? 

Why do liberals only speak reverently about the constitution when they are preparing to ignore it or reinterpret it?

Greetings Scott,

I was wondering how long it would take for Osama oops I mean Obama to take the rap for the stock market fall. How did he find the time to destroy the market with all those terrorist meetings and flag burning parties? And already I feel the urge to convert to Islam. Boy that Osama, Obama surely knows how to git her done.

And don't fret about the Constitution Scott. It is only a piece of paper.

Repent, the end is Rear!
Infidel

I didn't blame Barak Obama for a market crash. I did point out however that his most powerful promise of change is the first he has broken. I am sure more will follow. I also direct your attention to the fact that in this moment of crisis he is noticeably missing.

The constitution is only a piece of paper to people who no longer believe in the principles it so proudly, boldly and clearly articulates.

Scott

Greetings Scott,

You do know that the Constitution being just a piece paper thing came from the mouth of fuhrer Bush?

Unlike the "unitary executive" Bush, I am glad we have a constitution. Although it is not perfect the founders had enough foresight to make it amendable.

I can only hope we will survive the last two months of these mendacious miscreants who hate the Constitution and hate America. They hate us for our freedoms. So sad.

Shalom,
Infidel

Greetings Terri,

So who did run away with the spoon?

Infidel

I have a morbid curiosity about who the new scapegoat will be. Perhaps blaming Bush can carry Obama all eight years??? Hitlerean references about Bush are as useful as comparisons to Comrade Obama...fun perhaps, but not useful. In the end people who promise big things then fail to deliver are usually hoisted on their own petard.

01/21/13

Greetings Scott,

Blaming Bush? Ah, wasn't he the CEO of Amerika for the last 8 years? We don't hear too much about taking responsibility these days do we?

As for Hitlerean references, Bush IS a fascist. Obama is no where near being a commie, he is a conservative Democrat, or a member of the B team of the war party. Do you know what a fascist is Scott? Benny Mussolini said that fascism should better be called corporatism because it is the blending of the corporations with the state. Can you say Enron, Exxon, AIG, etc.

Which reminds me, do you think that we will ever see those public documents from the energy department that were subpoened by congress? The documents that Dick the Cheney (not a member of the executive branch) refuses to release with the help of his hunting buddy, Tony Scalia?

When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.

Shalom,
Infidel

Perhaps, like the repukes did during the eight years of Bush, Clinton will be the one to blame, eh Scott?  

Please reserve the condescending banter for your friends. Pompous recitation of history lessons and your colorful quotes have all the charm of a Louis Farrakhan speech.

Perhaps you could add some rhyming passages and and we could reminisce about Jesse Jackson...no wait... stumble and slur your speech and we can think warm thoughts about Teddy Kennedy...did I leave out any of the other conservative democrats that would no doubt appear in your political fairy tale. Indeed!

If you had the intellectual depth, you are desperately trying to display, you would know that fascism is a philosophy of the left. Hitler and Stalin had many issues upon which there was little disagreement...but I digress! Your insulting use of Muslim phrases and clever insinuations of sarcasm, using terrorists as a punchline for some private juvenile joke is not amusing, in fact it could be construed as Racist.

Enshala

Lot's of silliness on this blog post.

Let's review. I shared a map with people to make a point. Clay then chose one of about 10 from a website to prove his view of the election. I respect that, but then, I posted another one from those 10 that showed another interpretation.

Next enter Mike and Infidel; the latter decides to post 13 times when he could have posted once and could have made informed and coherent posts. Out of frustration I quipped that he might change his handle to "imbecile".

Terri interjects her view, scolds all of us in an attempt to sober all of us up. She is good at that but this time it did not affect everyone.  Her self deprecating humor cuts the tension so we need to appreciate her contribution, if not in full, in part.

Infidel continued to devolve into extreme accusations comparing Bush to Hitler and Mike takes one of his hundreds of posts and copies and pastes it as a new post.

Then Scott charges in to save the day, thank you! I do not have the energy to try to revert the argument back to factual and point by point debate of the original post.

Just another day of dysfunction on BlogsNH! Some day we will get a point by point argument down and have reasoned debate. So far, Scott, you seem to offer the best hope.

I am sure tomorrow that we will be into "Bush lied, people died", "the world trade center was an inside job", "ACORN is not creating voter fraud" and "taxes are good". Until then I am taking a breather!

for reminding us that when Bush lied, millions died.  It's true.  And yes, World Trade Center was most likely an inside job which led to war which allowed Bush and his cronies make millions from war manufacturing and government no-bid contracts.  We do indeed live in a dysfunctional world. And now Bush and his team have turned our economy over to the Europeans, according to Dick Morris....http://www.newsmax.com/morris/g_20_economic_summit/2008/11/19/153044.html

Michael,

If is is one thing which you are, it is consistent.  Even with the wacko conspiracy theories.

Of course you forgot a few:  "suspension of habeas corpus", "government wiretapping of private citizens", "hidden shadow government" and "One World Government".  WATCH OUT!!!!  They are behind YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do have a point.  The one thing not reported on in the news was the the meeting last week had a dangerous outcome with world leaders wanting a "global currency".

Michael,

I am happy that I will not be in the room when you learn that Obama can't or won't deliver the things he promised. As a conservative I have lived with that reality for the last eight years. Enjoy these celebratory days prior to inauguration as they are likely to be as good as it will get. Remember this conversation in the months ahead, I will not gloat when the things that you were promised do not come to pass, I too will be sad that our country is traveling on a precarious road fraught with danger and our driver has no clue how to get us home!

Everyone should go to Michael's link from Dick Morris.

Dick is correct and it is curious that Michael would champion is post on Newsmax as what Bush accomplished negotiating at the economic summit

It is exactly what Obama supporters and progressives have pined for over the years.

Michael, you have your wish if Morris is correct. 

Beam me up Scotty. Is it oxymoron or oxycontin you are thinking of?

And for most of my life I have been thinking that Hitler was a right wing tyrant and Stalin was a left wing tyrant who may have spent a little too much time in the seminary.
Do the skin heads or the Klan know that Hitler was a lefty?

Hitler, not only went after the Jews, but some Catholics and protestants, and the Jehova's Witnesses too. Not to mention the unions and communists and gays. Hitler was a union buster like Saint Ronald Raygun. He also outlawed abortion. And Hitler and Stalin weren't exactly on the same page in Stalingrad, were they. But the Nazis were pretty good pals with Prescot Bush, was he a lefty too?

T. Kennedy and Reverend Jesse are not conservative Democrats, but Bill and Hill Clinton, Obama and Rahm Emmanuel are, along with far too many more. Do you think that there is no such thing as a conservative Democrat? Have you ever heard of Nixon's southern strategy?

Terrorist as a punch line? That was John McCain's whole campaign strategy. On Tuesday Nov. 4, I received an e-mail from a conservative friend of mine. It claimed not only that Obama was a terrorist who wants to convert America to Islam but that he actually bragged about attending flag burning parties on a national news program. We are supposed to believe that a man running for the presidency bragged about burning the flag two months before the election. This is breathtaking inanity but it was meant for right wing worthies.

"An evil exists that threatens every man woman and child of this great country. We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect the homeland." - A. Hitler 1933

Shalom,
Infidel

I agree Michael. Inside job. George Bush's conspiracy theory is the dumbest one of them all. And I wonder how that anthrax investigation is going? Remember Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy both received letters of white death.

Infidel

Your twisted history lesson is amusing, if it were not so ill informed. The National Socialist party, which Hitler was the leader of shared many of the goals of its communist cousin. The one thing they did not share is an agreement on who would control power over the geography.

References to our country or its current leader as fascist might impress people at far left get togethers, but is not a hot topic for those who are serious about engaging in a useful dialogue. America does not have an Auschwitz, Treblinka, Babi Yar or Belzec nor is our military engaged in the wholesale slaughter of vanquished people or enemies of the state at the direction of its dictator. Your insipid pronouncements about the previous administration is either a hysterical rant or the product of some hallucinogenic product not available legally in America.

Oh and your conservative friend...imaginary no doubt!

Gitmo, Abu Graib, Texas, extraordinary rendition. Bush has killed over a million in Iraq (not counting Americans) and created 4 to 5 million refugees. Not to mention Afghanistan, and now Pakistan. Bush also had Hugo Chavez and Bertrand Aristide kidnapped. And of course he supports the rogue state of Israel.

He has also killed due process of law. and their is the spying thing. Just as the Reichstag fire was blamed on the commies, 9-11 was relentlessly attributed to Saddam Hussein. I think that we have millitary bases in over 140 countries around the globe. But it is not just George Bush, the fascist empire has been developing for quite a while.

If you would like I could send you that e-mail that I got from my imaginary friend.

"Fascism is Capitalism plus murder." Upton Sinclair

"If only more of today's military personnel would realize that they are being used by the owning elites as a publicly subsidized CAPITALIST goon squad." Major General Smedly Butler US Marines 1881-1940

Shalom,
Infidel

Until you choose to join us in the real world...seek help immediately!

Finally, there is someone else in this blog who sees the world in the same way as the majority of Americans see the world...not the way the demagogues, and rightwing regressive reactionaries who think the world should return to the way it was in some revisionist time of the past.  I agree with you.